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Post by luxuryflake on Feb 23, 2007 16:33:22 GMT 12
From personal experience, I say it's those that are campaigning so hard for this legislation to be pushed through, are the very ones that are guilty of losing their temper at times and going over the top. Just a personal observation from real life, not directed at any posters here. That doesn't really make sense. Why would people who might be capable of doing it, lobby a law against it? and If they did is that a good thing or a bad thing?
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Post by OasisNZ on Feb 23, 2007 16:35:55 GMT 12
Well Oasis I knew the Bradford family who are from Wellsford so that was well said. Its a bit like the pot calling the kettle black. I could say a lot more but may get sued if I did. I'm finding quite a few subjects on here lately that are causing me to hold back my real thoughts on the matter, sometimes I really wonder how much real life experience some of these people have had? Why is talk back radio in such contrast to what happens on mb's? More anonymity here? Sorry, ignore the digression, as you were....
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Post by OasisNZ on Feb 23, 2007 16:41:30 GMT 12
From personal experience, I say it's those that are campaigning so hard for this legislation to be pushed through, are the very ones that are guilty of losing their temper at times and going over the top. Just a personal observation from real life, not directed at any posters here. That doesn't really make sense. Why would people who might be capable of doing it, lobby a law against it? and If they did is that a good thing or a bad thing? I really can't answer that luxuryflake, just stating personal experience, I have seen a lot of women go on and on and on and on and on and on and on at a child, with no actual result, then occasionally losing their temper and lashing out, and later denying it... I can only say, that I am sort of against spanking, as I've never resorted to it myself, apart from the odd slap on the hand when a child tried to touch a hot plate for example, but what this new law is threatening, is that a parent could be charged for even doing that. Do you believe this is right?
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Post by OasisNZ on Feb 23, 2007 16:48:18 GMT 12
Now I know this will get some heckles up, but it's something I've heard stated, so...
I've heard it's the Maori way to just let the child lay their hand on the hotplate, they'll only do it once.
I kind of agree with the analogy, in some cases I have just watched very carefully and let the child make the mistake themselves, but in other cases it's time for action.
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Post by luxuryflake on Feb 23, 2007 17:48:25 GMT 12
That doesn't really make sense. Why would people who might be capable of doing it, lobby a law against it? and If they did is that a good thing or a bad thing? I really can't answer that luxuryflake, just stating personal experience, I have seen a lot of women go on and on and on and on and on and on and on at a child, with no actual result, then occasionally losing their temper and lashing out, and later denying it... I can only say, that I am sort of against spanking, as I've never resorted to it myself, apart from the odd slap on the hand when a child tried to touch a hot plate for example, but what this new law is threatening, is that a parent could be charged for even doing that. Do you believe this is right? Well there was discussion on around that sort of scenerio Oasis, and it was said ' that in circumstances where a child needs to be removed from danger, then a parent/ caregiver may do that forcefully. I think its just another one of those things entrenched in society, (that it is the right of the adult to smack the child) but it is something that can be changed. We don't go around hitting adults who have done something which angers us....unless brought up in an environment where it is the norm to hit' I don't know how these things work in court but I'm guessing that reduced sentences for child abusers comes through people being able to use 'smacking as a defence' (It was an accident I smacked little johnny it got out of hand)...gee poor mum, dad whoever they didn't mean it they were just trying to be a good parent by disciplining the child? I don't believe in smacking/hitting/spanking whatever people call it. Government could promote healthier ways of disciplining children. Perhaps parents/caregivers will take note if smacking is not a choice.
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Post by luxuryflake on Feb 23, 2007 17:58:36 GMT 12
and I probably should say also that, no smacking signs have been around in Pre-schools, and schools forever and a day, and that parent education around disciplining children in a safe way, i.e. without resorting to smacking, has also.
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Post by me on Feb 23, 2007 19:41:35 GMT 12
Sue Bradfords bill does not make smacking your kids illegal. It removes the defence of reasonable force from assault on a child cases. There will be no law that says it is a criminal act to smack children.
In order for a person to be charged with assault (which is the charge a person would get if they beat their child) the law would have to prove intent. i.e. the parent intended to harm the child. Most parents giving a smack on the hand/butt for e.g. a child running across a road, could prove their intent was not to harm the child but quite the opposite.
Doesn't the fact that NZ has the worst rate in the world for developed countries when it comes to child assault and deathmean anything?. Of course the law change won't change the way most people discipline their children, but it will give the right for those that take it too far, to be charged.
I used to smack my children after three warnings, I then realised that they weren't getting any positive messages from it, so for the the last three I never smacked at all.... all five of my kids (yes agl, they do exist, they're not just in my head) are great kids, those old enough work, have never been in trouble with the law, are fun, and best of all, are happy.
Smacking isn't the only way to teach children boundaries, and for most kids, it's just not necessary.
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Post by macker on Feb 23, 2007 19:46:37 GMT 12
I don't smack my kids. But neither am I against smacking when required. For example, dangerous behaviour, or maybe for continual defiance.
Both my kids are girls, and maybe with girls it is different?
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Post by luxuryflake on Feb 23, 2007 21:07:02 GMT 12
But some people think its required for the slightest whatever they consider wrong, that is why in my opinion the situation needs dealing with. You can't determine why and how other people might smack their kids or what they deem to be smacking... is actually smacking (whatever that may be) A definite line needs to be drawn.
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Post by macker on Feb 23, 2007 21:19:25 GMT 12
I don't imagine there are too many people like that luxuryflake. I have mixed feelings about this law. But, after reading "me's" post, I am more comfortable with it. I think it will take a generation for "no smacking" to become entrenched. And maybe, it will help to stem the flow of child abuse over time as this becomes "the norm." I got caned a few times at school, all it did was make me more careful. ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/wink.png)
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Dalbyj
Chief of Staff
Hope Springs a Kernal
Posts: 2,378
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Post by Dalbyj on Feb 23, 2007 21:21:56 GMT 12
Something worries me though .. I heard a story the other day, about a man who saw his child reaching to touch a hot element. When the father pulled the child away, he dislocated the childs shoulder.
My worry is this: when something like this happens (as it almost definitely will) how can the parent prove to the police that the injury was caused through trying to save the child from harm, rather than beating and abusing the child? Because with this law, hospital employees will be obligated to report every 'parent induced' injury to the police.
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Post by luxuryflake on Feb 23, 2007 21:31:12 GMT 12
There was also a recent case in which a baby drowned in the bathtub, apparently in there with the father who says he slipped as he was getting out of the bath knocked himself out and the baby then drowned in the bathtub, there doesn't seem to be any mention of a motive if in fact the father did drown the baby, anyway he was found guilty of drowning the baby... so yes it is plausable that people might be accused of child abuse and be charged when that is not the case, but I think these situations can occur whether there is a no smacking law or not.
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Post by Aglarana on Feb 24, 2007 10:07:16 GMT 12
A smack to the back of the hand, not hard, but firm, or a swat to the bottom are the only physical punishments I can stand to see or hear about. When parents whack their kids across the mouth for back chatting, or twist their ear lobes for not listening, that crosses the line, imo.
Sometimes people just lash out, because they don't know how direct their anger and frustration.
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Post by meandog on Mar 3, 2007 6:59:38 GMT 12
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Post by luxuryflake on Mar 3, 2007 10:10:29 GMT 12
I wonder about some of the points made to, particularly in cases of child custody. I think you'd find though that accusations of that nature already fly freely in messy custody cases, so would be investigated anyway. At this stage I think Mr Whats his face, is scaremongering concerning the bill. Personally I would hope that in it's final presentation there will be no reason for speculation or interpretation. It needs to be absolutely clear in it's intention. Someone is being paid good money to get it right, I hope they do. Just on - timeout as a consequence for bad behaviour, in early childhood centres 'time out' is not an option. I have a story to share about my 'time out experience' at primary school...I was locked in the reading room, a storage area for books... and they forgot I was in there LOL, my mother came up to the school after school looking for me and thats when I was found, it actually sticks in my mind because I thoroughly enjoyed being locked in the reading room and I'm still an avid reader today - unfortunately my teacher of the time left the school soon after I'm not sure whether it had anything to do with me - but she was a witch anyway LOL.
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Post by Aglarana on Mar 8, 2007 21:59:17 GMT 12
Holy cow, lux! I would've been terrified. Locked doors always summon one thought in my mind...Fire. *shudder*
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Post by meandog on Apr 21, 2007 7:27:39 GMT 12
;D Had this sent to me yesterday. LOL. ;D ![](http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k276/Meandog_2006/TuiSue.jpg)
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Post by manuela on Apr 21, 2007 7:34:15 GMT 12
oh MD - what a beauty!!!!! ![:P](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/tongue.png)
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Post by ladypenelope on Apr 21, 2007 11:43:21 GMT 12
In the case of a child about to hurt themselves, wouldn't a loud, deep, NO! have more effect than smacking? while lifting them up under both arms and placing them out of harms way? How low are some hotplates? I would have thought that any child at risk from a hot plate, would be old enough to understand that it was going to burn? Perhaps Parenting should be a subject that is part of the school curriculum from day one? We should be helping people cope with naughty, difficult children. This Bill seems to be the ambulance at the bottom of the cliff.
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